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 Post subject: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:10 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:49 am
Posts: 42
This is something I noticed that makes buffed units pretty terrible, especially for constructed. Most people say each card slot is worth around 35g, or at least I've read that a couple of times. If you do the math you will come up with the following gold amounts:

Armored Heavy Tank (ultra rare) = 195 gold
Heavy Tank + Reactive Armor (rare) = 200 gold

Kevlar Infantry (ultra rare) = 80 gold
Infantry + Kevlar (ultra rare) = 85 gold

Tech Fighter (ultra rare) = 255 gold
Fighter + Air Tech (ultra rare) = 265 gold

Marksman Artillery (uncommon) = 170 gold
Artillery + Ballistics (rare) = 160 gold (everybody knows you don't get marksman artillery for the vision buff)

Marksman Fighter (uncommon) = 180 gold
Fighter + Squadron Leader (premium) = 195 gold (and you get a 50% movement buff which is worth a lot more than 15 gold)

the list goes on but I think you get the point. Its like that for almost all the buffed units. They only cost 5 to 10 gold less than just getting the unit and placing the buff on it and you lose versatility. In constructed I would rather just get the unit and place the buff on it the next turn so its not a huge gold expense all at once. I understand making the Tech units and Tech buffs ultra rare, but why make the Armored buffed units ultra rare then make Reactive Armor only rare? I can understand the marksman buffed units a little more because they get range and vision. I'm just saying that a lot of the buffed units need to be lowered by 5 to 10 gold to make them more useful. Even in sealed I rarely get buffed units, or I am quick to pick something over them. The other big problem with buffed units is their rarity, I don't see any reason why the armored buffed units should be ultra rare (with Kevlar Infantry being the exception). It seems like infantry units are the only ones that are correct (Tech Infantry (common) = 100 gold, Infantry + Infantry Tech (rare) = 105). I'm just wondering if anybody else feels the same way or if anybody else has a different opinion?


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:54 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:56 pm
Posts: 369
Location: Kent, Ohio
I think reducing most of the prebuffed cards by about 15-20g would let them see more play and give people a reason to put them in their decks. Saving 5g isn't worth the tradeoff for being able to play the buff where it will help you the most/surpise your opponent. 20-25g might be.

I've heard most of the good players on the forums talk about staying away from pre-buffed cards like they are the plague... and its hard to disagree with them the way pricing is now.

Rothmorthau


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:12 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:26 am
Posts: 103
Reducing the prize for prebuffed card by 15-20 might be too much, reducing it 5-10 might be more reasonable though
I agree that a pre-buffed card is a plague, you should stay away from them
The only exception to that that i found is the Lethal Artillery, i always bring it because it save 10 gold which really worth it

The pre-buffed card that i find the most stupid is the Marksman Recon
Recon + Binocular = 60gold
Marksman Recon = 95 gold (everybody knows you don't get Marksman Recon for the range buff)

35 gold difference for something like that? WTF


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:31 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:02 pm
Posts: 1222
While I agree with your general comment that most buffed units are weak, I don't agree with your analysis that the difference between a buffed unit and a buff should more.

Consider a lethal heavy is 200 and fp is 50. The 10 difference is very reasonalbe. You cannot say since a card is worth 35 the difference should be 35. You use a card in either case. The difference is for the flexibility to play it later and 5-10 seems reasonable for that. The issue may be that 50 is too much for firepower or 40 is too much for armor and that makes the buffed cards too much.

Some buffed units are expensive -- marksman recon example. You should NEVER play that in constructed. But, there might be boards and cardpools where it makes sense to play marksman recon. I specifically recall playing it in a team tournament during beta because my teammate told me the guy we were playing (his teammate from last round) had delta force and guerilla fighter. Point is, Marksman is a card you might play in sealed.

The intent is not to have all cards have equal power. If that were the case, there would be no skill in choosing your deck. If all cards were equal, it would not matter what you pick in sealed (apart from combinations). We want you to have to think which cards are best. However, we want you to sometimes play a card that is less good because of circumstances or a bad card pool.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:58 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:56 pm
Posts: 369
Location: Kent, Ohio
If you want to have some cards that are not as good in the rotation to dilute sealed that is understandable. Just realize that most players will avoid putting them in their decks in constructed. I think there's a happy medium somewhere though :-)


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:45 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 81
Location: New Jersey
I agree that reducing the cost 10-20 points would make Buffed Units more viable, they represent a large group of cards that I don't use.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:07 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:49 am
Posts: 42
I'm just trying to say that the cost of these cards should be reduced by 5 or 10 (maybe 15 in some cases) to make them more useful. They wouldn't be overpowered at all, still probably not played too often, but at least you wouldn't be screwed in sealed if you got a lot of them.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:49 am
Posts: 42
I just thought of something, why wouldn't you want all the cards to be equal in power? I think it would require more skill to pick cards that work well with each other, compared to "I hope I get good cards in this sealed tournament." Trying to dilute sealed makes no sense, it takes skill out of the game and puts luck in it. When I can pick 12 cards in less than 10 seconds because those 12 cards are way better than the rest, that is kind of ridiculous. Your goal should be to make all the cards balanced according to their rarity. Ultra rares should be better than rares, rares should be better than uncommons, and uncommons should be better than commons. It should be difficult to pick the best 12 cards to make your deck in sealed. The only real reason I can think of to not change things around would be for drafting. When drafting comes out that is going to change things a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:26 am
Posts: 103
chrism wrote:
While I agree with your general comment that most buffed units are weak, I don't agree with your analysis that the difference between a buffed unit and a buff should more.

Consider a lethal heavy is 200 and fp is 50. The 10 difference is very reasonalbe. You cannot say since a card is worth 35 the difference should be 35. You use a card in either case. The difference is for the flexibility to play it later and 5-10 seems reasonable for that. The issue may be that 50 is too much for firepower or 40 is too much for armor and that makes the buffed cards too much.

Some buffed units are expensive -- marksman recon example. You should NEVER play that in constructed. But, there might be boards and cardpools where it makes sense to play marksman recon. I specifically recall playing it in a team tournament during beta because my teammate told me the guy we were playing (his teammate from last round) had delta force and guerilla fighter. Point is, Marksman is a card you might play in sealed.

The intent is not to have all cards have equal power. If that were the case, there would be no skill in choosing your deck. If all cards were equal, it would not matter what you pick in sealed (apart from combinations). We want you to have to think which cards are best. However, we want you to sometimes play a card that is less good because of circumstances or a bad card pool.


I thought that actually a pretty ridiculous reason, letting some card to be way inferior than the others is beat the purpose of balancing the card power that happen sometimes when patching
What do the balancing purpose?
To make no card practically way imbalance or way superior right?
No skill in choosing?
That's exactly what will happen when some card is overpowered, people will always pick them
It's actually the opposite, when all cards have relatively equal power it would took skill and planning to pick cards from the pool of equal cards that will complement each other and fit into the strategy you would like to made, not just pick the overpowered card and ignore the rest without even considering it since it's crap

I totally agree it's ridiculous when i can pick my card in less than 10 second because some card is way better when others is way crappier


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:54 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:48 pm
Posts: 17
I agree there need to be some changes with them.
Magic ahd the same problem with its system, and they changed it so that there were far fewer terrible cards; the result is that because each pack is deeper the drafting/sealed is mroe interesteing because you actually have more choices to make; instead of just playing the good cards cuz they're the only ones that are any good. I don't recall which articles discussed it, i think they were a few years ago.
Some of the buffed unitas are utter trash in this, i.e. they're actually WORSE than just hiring regular units at the regular price. like lethal recon
Instead of costing these units as baseunit cost + thebuffscost-10; it'd make more sense to cost them at something like enlistunitcost + the buffscost+10; since otherwise enlists jsut dominate them so thoroughly (in the game theory sense of dominating)


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