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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:17 pm 
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Snapfire wrote:
I agree that reducing the cost 10-20 points would make Buffed Units more viable, they represent a large group of cards that I don't use.

agree

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:38 pm 
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chrism wrote:

Consider a lethal heavy is 200 and fp is 50. The 10 difference is very reasonalbe. You cannot say since a card is worth 35 the difference should be 35. You use a card in either case. The difference is for the flexibility to play it later and 5-10 seems reasonable for that. The issue may be that 50 is too much for firepower or 40 is too much for armor and that makes the buffed cards too much.


the problem is you shouldnt compare the buffed units to the buff cards!
it makes more sense to compare them with the enlist cards and if you do that youll see that enlist cards just crush buffed units no problem(exeption is marksman arty which might be ok). The biggest problem is you can just kill a buffrd units with a card which cost not even half that much. Its not like bribbery which costs more than ANY merc.
So compare tech light tank(my favourite buffed unit ;) ) to enlist 2 light tank... enlist 2 light tank has higher dmg higher live higher mobility higher flexibility higher viability...add anything you want here. everyone will so favor enlist cards instead of buffed units an here is the real problem. Enlist cards maybe should cost more but that really would make the heroes to strong so theres only one thing to do... i wont tell you what to do cause its obvious :P

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:05 pm 
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Most buff units are not good deals by themselves. Buffed units are good and can be better than enlists because of more buffs and verteran status.

In you lt example, if I gve my tech tank tank commander, I get speed and range on one super unit. It would take you 2 cards to equally buff your units. If my tech tank kills 2 units it get veteran as a buffed unit, with a hp buff that is worth a lot because of the armor. Same if I heal it. You need to use cards in combo to make buff units work but they can be good -- you should know that -- superfighter man.

Yeah, but, tech light tank does suck.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:07 pm 
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chrism wrote:
Yeah, but, tech light tank does suck.

qft

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:02 am 

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The problem with buffed units is that they cost a lot and can be debuffed. If you get a Tech Light tank at 160 gold, then add Tank Leader to it at 55 gold, that's 215 gold and 2 card slots on a unit that you are hoping can get 2 kills and hoping that it doesn't get debuffed and destroyed. The reason super fighters are so good is because they can move really far and over any terrain and are easy to protect. An easy way to compensate for this is make AA move 4 spaces instead of 3, but now I'm getting away from my point. For the most part, I just ignore buffed units entirely, and that shouldn't happen in my opinion. If I have the choice between Lethal Artillery and Firepower, I'm going to pick firepower every time, because there is always that chance I might need to buff an AA or a tank, or I just can't afford 165 gold and would rather spend 125 this turn, and 50 on the next turn. There has to be a happy medium where buffed units aren't overpowered or over priced.

I think lowering the cost of buffed units would change the game in all the right ways. It would make strategizing a lot more important, especially in sealed. For the most part sealed is just pick the most powerful cards and hope they are more powerful than your opponents. Obviously there is still a lot of strategy that goes into sealed, that's why some people have a 5-1 win ratio (damn you Geral). But even he bitches about steaks of bad luck. I think lowering the cost of buffed units would remove the luck factor and put more strategy into the game.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:55 am 

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I think buffed units are very close to being usable. Just a wee bit less expensive and they'd be used by the good players.

Indeed, some of them are already being used now and then (lethal art for sure, tech art sometimes). The challenge is to bring the others (lethal recon, lethal lt, etc) into usable territory.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:30 pm 
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as was said, biggest problem of buffed units is that they can be debuffed. There was suggestion of card which woul dmake unit immune to debuffs. Will that be in expansions or premium?

If yes than they are good as it is now.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:32 pm 
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I watched some replays of good players. I think this problem is overstated. These buffed units are used at least sometimes by good players in sealed. . . . No light tanks are used. :)

Marksman Fighter
Lethal Fighter
Armor Fighter
Tech Fighter
Tech Heli
Letahl Heli
Armor Heli
Marksman Heli
Marksman Recon
Marksman Art
Letahl Art
Tech Art
Armo Art
Marksman AA
Lethal AA
Lethal Heavy
Armor Heavy
Tech Heavy
Tech Infantry
Lethal Infantry
Kevalr Infantry
Kevlar 2 Infantry
Marksman Infantry


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:43 pm 
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I use SOME of these if its unevitable, only lethal heavy on that small map, i dont remember name right now :)

however, tech cards suck, no offense ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:10 pm 

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The reason some of these cards are used is because we have to use 12 out of 24 cards in regular sealed. We don't always get 12 good cards, so we have to settle for overpriced buffed units to fit into our strategy and hope that our opponent didn't get cheaper, better cards. I'm not saying they need to be drastically decreased, but anywhere from 5 to 20 gold depending on the card.

I guess another way to fix this is make debuffs cost more. I'm just throwing that out there. 5 gold to immobilize a unit for 2 turns seems really cheap to me. Immobilize any is 30 gold which seems like the right price, I have used 2 of them in a constructed deck before and had good results. Going from 5 gold to 30 gold is just a big jump.

I do have to disagree with your list. I don't think there are too many top rated players that use Armored Artillery, tech anything except infantry, marksman fighter is pushing it (I used to use it but it just doesn't do enough damage for what it costs), anything over 150 gold is just too much to reliably use.

Here is a list of what I think some buffed units should cost (remember I am not a developer or a tester, I'm just throwing some numbers out there to get the discussion going and hopefully make a change to the game that I and other players feel is necessary):

Lethal Fighter - 170 gold (I would still probably pick Airpower over this card, especially if I had an enlist fighter or heli, but at 170 gold this card is a good option and is still not an omg I must use this card)

Tech Anti-Air - 135 gold (nobody ever uses this card, but at 135 gold it becomes a very reasonable option, considering AA hero is only 125 gold and is way better)

Lethal Recon - 75 gold (I would use this card at 75 gold)

Marksman Light Tank - 110 gold (marksman on a light tank is terrible, even at 110 gold this card probably won't see a lot of play)

Again, this is just me throwing numbers out there and seeing what sticks. Any constructive criticism is welcome.


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