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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:15 pm
Posts: 575
I use the Kevlars and Tech Infantry, and sometimes Marksman Art for range and Marksman Recon for vision when no other options are available.

I would use the rest more if they were ~10g cheaper.

Witcher overwhelmed everyone in the sealed money tournament yesterday with the number of enlists he had and kept every round.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:38 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 728
Presently lack of enlist is half way towards a loss, especially if not compensated by extreme luck on the remaining cards.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:55 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:49 am
Posts: 42
That's exactly what I'm trying to say, if you don't get enlists and mercs in sealed, you lose. Buffed units just cost too much and can be debuffed and overwhelmed too easily. There is a very obvious correlation between getting enlist and merc cards and winning.

Something else I just noticed that proves buffed units cost too much. Look at enlist 2 Light Tanks and Lethal Light Tank. Enlist 2 Light Tanks costs 150 gold, Lethal Light Tank costs 140 gold. Enlist 2 Light Tanks is rare and Lethal Light Tank is common, but only a 10 gold difference when there is no balance between the cards. Look at the rare Tech Light Tank, it costs 160 gold, 10 more than Enlist 2 Light Tanks and I would rather have 2 normal tanks than 1 tech light tank in almost every possible situation. As stated before, there is no balance of card power when it comes to enlist cards and buffed unit cards.

I just thought of something else, why are the lethal and marksman infantry units less than the cost of a regular infantry unit? I know that they are still weak but it just proves my point. Also, I don't think that armored units are as powerful as the developers think they are (with the exception of kevlar infantry). Its nice to have armor, and they have a better chance of getting promoted, but they are still weak and rarely played. Its only a 20% armor buff, that's just not enough of an armor buff to really make it worth getting. I know the developers will say "they have a better chance of getting promoted, hence getting more armor and some health back." But I'm not spending that much gold and a card slot on a unit that has a chance of being good,. Even then I need cards like repair and debuffs to keep it alive (which I have to do because I'm so committed to the unit).


Last edited by Rendrag on Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:15 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:57 pm
Posts: 64
I think the armour on tech/armoured units should be a bit more than 20%, 30% seems right to me (not 40 like an infantry thou).

marksman units can be worth it to me, its a combi of 2 cards in one, lethal, armoured or tech is not. (thou often only one of the 2 is usefull, but markman hevy, AA, heli or fighter are not bad with a stopgap armour card.

thou you often want to boost the marksman units with more firepower to make them worth it.

kevalr infantry is worth it due to 40% armour, full heal cards for cheap and guerilla to buff them off.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:24 pm 
Battle Dex Testing Team
Battle Dex Testing Team
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Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:33 am
Posts: 322
chrism wrote:
In you lt example, if I gve my tech tank tank commander, I get speed and range on one super unit. It would take you 2 cards to equally buff your units. If my tech tank kills 2 units it get veteran as a buffed unit, with a hp buff that is worth a lot because of the armor. Same if I heal it. You need to use cards in combo to make buff units work but they can be good -- you should know that -- superfighter man.



i know that but what i experience is those funny ones playing a immobilize any and a airlift 1 which kisses your superfighter pretty hard and even if you use evac which still says you can retreat with ANY unit you cant save him and lost the game to 2 cards which are ALWAYS usable in ANY situation. It doesnt matter if i play superfighter or supertank or superart or even the rare super heli or the lost super aa airlift and immo any destroys any of those strats. But superplane against aa hero -.- or against 2 aa -.- or kamikaze fighter -.-...

however i dont think that the buffed air units are to weak ecpecially not the fighter but the helis are aswell as the whole ground army without marksman arty and vision recon

_________________
No matter if its a grain of sand or a stone in water they both sink.
No is not now, i know that now=)


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:33 pm
Posts: 245
I think one of the problems is that while there are many good points in this thread, the issue is not being separated enough. As I see it, there are two major complaints being echoed:

1) There are too many cards which require a complex constructed deck to make good use of, which then become somewhat worthless in sealed games. This causes sealed deck games to boil down to a select group of cards, which don't need a magic combination to make them powerful.

2) When certain card combinations are compared to their similar counterpart, or when two similar cards are compared, there is a clear disconnect with balance.

I think Geral's main complaint is that between two good players in a sealed deck game, whoever generally gets more of a select group of commons most often wins. I bet he would agree that if you took two good players and saw both of their available cards to pick from, you could quickly predict a winner and probably be accurate at least 80% of the time. You could probably predict the winner correctly 70% of the time if you merely saw the enlist and debuff cards available to them, without even seeing the rares or ultra-rares. I believe this is true and I also believe it is a problem.

Now, the current proposed solution for sealed imbalance between decks involves a draft. For anybody complaining about the luck of the draw in sealed, the solution is coming. I'm not sure of how the draft will work, but if you don't like even the remote possibility of your opponent knowing your cards, I offer a different proposal: from each of a players sealed packs, one common card automatically is a random enlist. Therefore, no player would be stuck looking at all buffed units with no basic enlist, and a complex draft where your opponent may know some of your cards is also no longer necessary.

I'll discuss individual card cost and balance sometime in the future after I think about it more.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:07 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:19 am
Posts: 37
Please bear in mind this is just a personal opinion, from a middle level player.

There seems to be a very weird design philosophy behind buffed cards, because with enlist you get the same unit for less gold, but with buffed you get a better unit (with some of the upgrades not being very useful for the role of each unit) for A LOT more gold.

If buffed units were to be taken as the counter part to enlists (instead of lots of regular units you get fewer more powerful units) then buffed units should cost the same or a little more gold than their regular counter parts, because let's face it, other than the buffed Infantry (which for whatever reason all seem priced very reasonably compared to almost all other buffed units), the recons and a couple of the arties all the other cards so unbelievable useless that i wouldn't take them even if all my other cards suck, because using them means taking a pretty big disadvantage.

This might be intentional by the devs, i don't know, but i don't see the point in keeping a large group of useless cards that can't fit their role nearly as well as mercenaries or enlists. I would love to see most buffed units getting some serious reductions in cost to end the whole issue of lots of buffed units vs. lots of enlists = huge disadvantage.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:01 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:57 pm
Posts: 64
I have been thinking a bit about the buffed units and i come to the conclusion that:

there is nothing wrong with the buffed units as such, however its the experience system that is the problem here.

if a unit would rank up one xp level for each 2 kills, and the buffs from firepower/ armour would stack up better, then buffed units could become as powerfull as they should be.

for example, elite firepower unit now gets + 100% dmge (50 from elite, 50 from firepower) this should be 125% instead
100 % base + 50 FP + 50% over this = 225% damage, this gives the unit a nice added boost compared to unbuffed units, or to say it differently,

a normal unit does 20 dmge a shot, a buffed unit does 30 dmge a shot in its shot discription, buffs added directly to damage, the % boost from experience (25% for veteran, 50% for elite) should go on top of this dmge per shot, for 45 dmge on elite, compared to 30 dmge for a non buffed elite. (and not, like it is now, 30 dmge for unbuffed elite, 40 dmge for buffed elite) buffed units relativly gain less from veterancy now.

this is the way the armour boost is incorporated now.(there buffed units gain reltivly the same with veterancy as unbuffed units).

if then the number of ranks would increase as well, (up to 5 or so, max kills with one unit i got to was 12 or so) then i think buffed units are playable a lot more (thou the gains per rank should be dcreased a little, like 20% FP and 10% armour each uipgrade).


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:49 am
Posts: 42
There are a lot of ways to fix this problem, but it sounds like everybody agrees that there is a problem. A change to the promotion system is an interesting solution, but would probably cause a lot of problems with it. In my opinion, lowering the cost of all the buffed unit cards is the easiest and most effective way. I don't agree with what the developers have said that you can't compare buffed unit cards to other cards. That's exactly what they should do, and all cards should have some kind of balance in power.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with buffed units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:26 pm
Posts: 38
Win starting with tech inf, lethal fighter and lethal heavy, pretty proud of what I did there.

http://battledexgame.com/game.php?game_id=27073


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