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 Post subject: Re: remove stupid turn limits.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:31 pm 
Battle Dex Team

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:02 pm
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Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to add that yes, we could automatically give people a cp to start. We thought about that as well. It is an option, but we thought it might confuse people more than a turn limit.


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 Post subject: Re: remove stupid turn limits.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:55 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:48 pm
Posts: 17
hmm, my post got eaten somehow, retyping shorter -
I think it's less clear. Now you have 2 limits - the turn limit which will trigger victory by higher cp value, and the cp limit which will trigger end game when reached. maps vary somewhat on when they usually reach their cp to win value; some maps very reliably do so before turn 30, some aroudn there, and some woudl often get there somewhat after. So when playing a map, you have to figure out whether it's going to come down to the turn limit cp or the cp to win value. That seems more confusing to a new player (as yo could easily focus on one value and not recognize the importance of the other), than having one single endpoint to watch for in cp victories.

having one cp poitn you start the gaem with, right next to yoru base, should be reasonably clear to most people; and then you only need to have one condition (either the cp to win value, or the turn limit) instead of both.
I also note, that if you use only a turn limit, then it's not even strictly necessatry to give people a starting cp, as the game already has tiebreaker rules for games that reach the turn limit.

I'd also like to hear in the other thread in gen discussion about what a control point is supposed to represent flavorwise, as right now it seems to be a purely functional mechanic with no relation to anything real (unlike resources which have clear real world parallels, or strategic things like high ground. it'd be good if there was some explanation as to why accumulating cps lets oyu win the game. while not strictly necessary, it amkes for a better more intuitive game if there is.


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 Post subject: Re: remove stupid turn limits.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:32 am 
Battle Dex Team

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:02 pm
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I didn't point out one other problem of giving people one starting cp they control -- it would limit our future development options. If we wanted to make a board with a 45 cp condition, we couldn't (we have boards like this already). If gave people 1 cp and wanted a true 45 cp condition, how many cps does it take to win. To you assume 30 turns and thus make it a 75 cp limit. If so, if no one takes a point it is a 45 turn game. It is also hard to determine how many points to make the limit if each person starts with one point because you don' t know how long to assume the game will last. It changes a lot of things and causes some problems. We thought about it for the reasons you mentioned. We just decided it did not work.

We consider the map to be a large area, like a small country or state (which would be realistic since the map has many resource points so it is clearly not a battlefield). Each unit is not one unit but a company or legion or whatever. Which also makes sense since it would be very diffiucult for one infantry with a rifle to stop a tank or a fighter. Thus, we consider the cps to be population centers, industrial centers, production centers, strategic locations (on some maps), military targets, or other valuable points.


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 Post subject: Re: remove stupid turn limits.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:36 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:53 am
Posts: 11
I personally like the system just the way it is now.

Having started playing this game less than a month ago i can't really say those concepts are really hard to understand, you have a hard turn limit to prevent stalemates and two ways to win: reach the number of required CPs or kill the HQ (i guess having an overwhelming force and the enemy just surrendering is also a common ocurrence).

CPs are an interesting mechanic because they give you choices, do you concentrate on getting them early and trying to hold the enemy?, or maybe just focus on resources and try to overwhelm the enemy before they get all the required CPs?, that's i choice i have to make every game (and sometimes change it during them) and i like that.

The turn limit also leads you to make choices, as you're aproaching it and the enemy has the CP advantage but you have the troops advantage, do you risk a head on assault to finish the game quickly or go safe and steady while risking losing for being too slow?, it's all about choices and your ability to correctly assess the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: remove stupid turn limits.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:41 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:59 pm
Posts: 247
the problem with taking away the turn limits is the same as when it was higher, people could take all the res they want without worrying about cps till the opponent is 10-15 from winning, then just with your army advantage you could take their cp even at turn 40 or so because they haven't reached the vp condition. In simpler terms, it would completely erase the point of the cps in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: remove stupid turn limits.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:31 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:48 pm
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vicitm, that is not true, you're not understanding/reading the therad fully.
the point is to avoid duplication foa g ame mechanic. if turn limits were removed, my posts assert some other system would be put in place to ensure interesting tension remains between the choices (though there's also some issues with the degree to which cps even provide interesting tension at all)

chrism - i don't think anyone will see the game as taking place on a state/small nation scale, unless it's very small. while it's a game so there are abstractions, still artillery covering half the map precludes anything that large scale; and the art style doesn't encourage people to think of it is a large scale agme (nor the naming conventions);

the difficulties in setting values apply just as mcuh in the current sitaution as in my alternates. since the cp to win condition still applies. I also note that i onlys iad to eliminate duplication of mechanic, i never siad whcih duplicate to remove.

What about the eminently simpler option: keep the turn limit, remove the X vps counts as a win condition from maps (outside of training/coops where it's too ahrd to figure out the values for changes). You still have all the advantages of a hard turn limit, and ther's one less detail for newer playeres to miss and get anoyed by; and you dont' have to mess around with figuring the correct value for a map.
I also note that yoru current system already palces considerable restrictions on map design.

There's also the larger issue of what purpose do cps serve in the game other than as an abstraction point, or an arbitrary tension increaser. Sure it makes some choice betwen cps and resources, but given the placement of most of them it's not that much most of the time. Few maps are setup to require you to make a serious choice between cps and resources on a strategic level, only no a tactical what you can get level.

Consider this: imagine if the cps points were all turned into resource locations, and the tiebreaker condition was whatevr it relady is now for when 2 people have the same cps at agme end. woudld the game really play all that differently under that condition? if not, then you have to quesiton the value of having cps at all. Games wehre you get a surge of cps at some cost then try to hold them for awhile, just long enough, before falling are possible; but holding such resources would also help you win as holding them for awhile lets you income out. As I look at many of the maps, on a fair number of them, the game weould play about the same under sucha system. It'd be good if the cps had some sort of utility purpose beyond being pure victory conditions, something that related to why controlling them at all is valuable.

Also, your boards glitch on long posts; it keeps force-scrolling the bar up, so I can't see the bottom of the message where i'm t typing. If i try to scroll down, the scroll bar jhust reset to a higher location for some reason. a location partway up.


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 Post subject: Re: remove stupid turn limits.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:28 am 
Battle Dex Testing Team
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I will sum it up and make this short :) :

1. We want to make sure that no game goes beyond turn 30, because tournaments could take too long then.
2. If base had its own cp, you would have to set cp limit to 30, if you wanted to make sure there is max 30 turns.
3. If you do that , you would reach turn 30 only if no side took any cp. This would remove longer games, which is also something we dont want.

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 Post subject: Re: remove stupid turn limits.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:32 am 
Battle Dex Testing Team
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To your other possibilities:

1. keeping cp and turn limit, but removing winning condintion on reaching certain vp. - You couldnt win game before turn 30, only with destroying base or surrendering.
2. removing cps entirely - That is possibility, we talked about maps where there would be no cps. I would like such maps, but also keep the current.

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 Post subject: Re: remove stupid turn limits.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:30 am 
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Some things in this game need to stay constant, including Turn Limits and Control Points. Just my 2cents

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