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 Post subject: Curious if this has been considered...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:33 am 
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In Starcraft (and many other RTS's) you have to scout to see if your opponent has taken resources patches.

Battledex just shows you who controls what even through fog of war.

During playtesting did you try to play the game without that knowledge? It seems like it would be a fun way to play...you really could "sneak" a resource and if you got a cp your opponent wouldn't know which one you got control of.

Should scouting be more important in this game?

I'd like to hear what people's opinions are on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious if this has been considered...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:19 am 
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This is a very good point. I never understood why we would get that "free" information. Vision of what is happening on the battlefield is a commodity, and yet we are shown exactly where the opponents infantry are at certain times, FOR FREE. Why?

Now i know we have all been very spoiled with this extra knowledge, but i really think people should consider giving this more realistic way a chance. There is no good justification not to (that i can think of).

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 Post subject: Re: Curious if this has been considered...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:40 am 
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It never came up as far as I remember.

If you want to find some logic in it, then you could make a point, that working refinery would show up on different sensors, than just visual contact.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious if this has been considered...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:52 am 
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fewar wrote:
It never came up as far as I remember.

If you want to find some logic in it, then you could make a point, that working refinery would show up on different sensors, than just visual contact.

I don't remember it either
And not to mention possible smoke/smog and noise (not sure exactly what they're like irl but I can imagine)

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 Post subject: Re: Curious if this has been considered...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:43 pm 
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I'm not looking to "invent a story" as to why we can currently see them. i'm not interested in hearing about possible sensors, or smog, or noise, etc.

I'm asking the question, from a stricly logistical standpoint, why do we give/are given free information to/from our opponents in the game? It cheats the whole concept of fog of war. Since this game utilizes fog of war, why are we using the "kid's gloves" version that reveals things that we haven't actually "earned" the right to see?

Having vision is a tangible tactial advantage. Can anyone give a real logistical reason as to why the current way should continue?

Just consider this, in a sealed game, when the res is 4 spots away, and you don't see the res change color, you can pretty accurately judge where that infanty will be in 2 turns. It will stop to capture, and then next turn, 99% of the time, it will be only 3 hexes away. If you didn't have the free information that you have now, that same infantry could actually be 10 squares away, with still capping the res. The difference between 3 hexes, and 10 hexes, is monumental.

Devs? What are your thoughts on this?

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 Post subject: Re: Curious if this has been considered...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:42 pm 
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While I think this is worthwhile to discuss, my vote would be to leave it as is - I like being spoiled.

I think its important to have some idea of how far ahead or behind you are compared to your opponent. Take for instance, all the maps where there is a factory four spaces away from the nearest spawn point. An adrenaline infantry can reach this turn one, a regular infantry without a movement buff requires two turns.

One problem with your logic, HighVibes, is that you seem to be saying that its my responsibility to get vision on the factory by his base on turn 1 or 2, which is a little bit far fetched imo - pushing that far forward towards his base is practically suicide with that unit. I believe its very important to know - especially in sealed - whether my opponent was able to take that factory turn 1 or turn 2.

I like the mindgames that occur when this "free" information is given, because both players realize that free information was given. Take your example, my infantry captures a factory. Therefore my opponent knows that in one turn my infantry will like be three spots away. Because I know that my opponent is assuming my infantry will be 3 spots away from the factory, I may suddenly use a troop transport, or perhaps move the infantry in a different direction than he would expect. I think a big part of the game is using this free information better than your opponent does.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious if this has been considered...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:04 pm 
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What Doug said.

We considered it both ways, but in FFA we thought it was really useful to know without scouting. FFA was bad without it. Then we liked it in 1v1 because the little info you get really is important and makes it a more strategical game. If I know your inf has 4+ movement, I play differently. It would be fine without giving this info, but we liked the extra stategy this little peice of info gives.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious if this has been considered...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:01 pm 
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Who doesn't like to be spoiled with free stuff? But i feel like you are missing my point entirely, Doug.

I'm not saying that its your "responsibility" to get vision on the factory by his base on turn 1 or 2 at all. I'm not sure how you got that from what i said. The point i'm tryin to make is that you have the ABILITY to get vision on that factory if you choose to invest the resources in EARNING that ability. Of course it's "very important to know" this "free information", but there is an even DEEPER level of strategy involved if you actually choose to go and get that information for yourself, with your units. Consider that for a minute.

Chris, I can understand and respect why in FFA you made that choice, and I even partially agree in the FFA setting due to balancing the power. By how you sound, free vision was not intended originally for the 1v1 format at all. With all due respect, Chris, to say "What Doug said", when he really didn't make any logical points to justify it at all, makes me wonder. You said that having free vision makes it a more strategical game. This is what i'm asking you to defend. Of course getting free info about your enemies location leads to a strategy on how to counter them. But from my point of view, free vision actually makes it somewhat less strategic. Without the free gifts of vision, you actually would have to safely maneuver a unit to have line of sight and vision range to the factory if you really wanted to know. It takes a lot more strategy to accomplish this, if you so chose to, then to just get it for free, with no good reason.

You also called this free gift a "little piece of info". Revealing the exact location of my weakest, most vulnerable, least cost effective, and yet all important factory /CP capper, is by no means a "little piece of info". Granted, you see theirs too. But again it's still a less strategic game because of it. This is what no one is addressing.

You starcraft players, can you imagine if you could just see automatically when your enemy puts down a new HQ? Makes no sense at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious if this has been considered...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:49 am 
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I'm not gonna disagree with anyone but the free vision has helped and hurt me in the past.

I was doing a base rush with all tanks leaving no money to grab the resources a few hexs away from my base*becuz i'm a bad player*
So my opponent says: Why haven't u grabed the your resources yet?
Which leads him to believe i've already spent all my gold and begins prepare for a Rush of helis or tanks
Although the free information is helpful it can be hurtful ,it lets you know if the enemy has any units there or if any units are advanceing on your own Resources/cp's

If BattleDex Made us Send recons/fighters to see if the Resource was captured or not then wouldn't that rule have to be applied to the Control points 2? But not seeing Control points can be very hurtfull to both players because you do not no how far ahead or behind you are.
Again if we didn't have that free vision then what about the resources and control points we have already captured?
Is it realistic for us to see what our Factorys and control points see every turn?



I'm not sure if battledex should change the free vision or not but whatever they do i just wanna play this game.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious if this has been considered...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:02 am 
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Thanks for your input Random.

By this reasoning, yes, you wouldn't be given free vision on enemies cp's either. You thou, still know how far ahead/behind you were because of the points total by your name.

Vision on your own exisiting factories and cps would still exist, as your have dedicated some of your efforts (infan actually taking the commodity) to have that ability.

And yeah, I still love the game either way. Thanks for listening to me rant :P

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