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 Post subject: Balance WAR between JOJO and CHRISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:51 am 
Battle Dex Testing Team
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So since the card chat flourishes about all those balance issues with buffed units heroes and other strong stuff and many solutions were discussed and some even discovered. However as it seems the one and only who can really change something about cards didnt fall for those yet.

But well see how long this will stay cause i hope there is a way to illustrate that really something needs to be done about it. So chrism I want YOU for a 1v1 with you using those cards which are meant to be weak. That way you will hopefully realize those cards really are too bad.
As far as im concerned i will bring only single unit enlist cards to a maximum of 2 but im only allowed to use 4 cards total the whole game. Your restriction will be to take cards from the buffed unit section and other cards which are rated underpowered atm. And you need to USE those cards at least 1 in 2 turns. However you are allowed to use more of those in all the turns if you want to.

If you want we can set a bit of money on the line too so no one wastes his time ;)
please let me know if you are up for this if yes i will post the list of cards which you can choose from here. If someone has advice how we can make this match more "balanced" to highlight the buff need of those cards post it in this thread!

i hope we can do this soon in looking forward to it

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 Post subject: Re: Balance WAR between JOJO and CHRISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:04 am 
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approved! i really think you need to do something about these cards because litelary the only ones used are arties and fighters for coops imho

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 Post subject: Re: Balance WAR between JOJO and CHRISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:18 am 
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I'm always up for a challenge so post the list. I may want to make some additions to the list, but let me see what you are thinking. You can't give me all buffed units and total crap, because no one would ever play all buffed units. Someone would play 8 enlists because you could cast them, but you can't play 8 buffed units because you will never have the money.

As I've said, we know buffed units can be a little weaker than other cards. We were not trying to make all cards the same power level. If all cards were the same power level, there would be no skill in building a deck. Further, buffed unts were intentionally made weaker because future planned cards will make buffed units more attractive. Enlists were intentionally made stronger because they can't really get better. As we make more cards, we always wanted enlists to be attractice. The more cards you have to choose from, the weaker enlists get in constructed.

Let's play.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance WAR between JOJO and CHRISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:10 pm 
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After this match is finished, i would love to see an announcement about it, and the replay posted.

So you guys never said how much $$ was on the line!

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 Post subject: Re: Balance WAR between JOJO and CHRISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:21 pm 
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its not about money but about the fact that jojo is hugely pissed about buffed units (especially techs, light tank there).
they do not even come close to matching the price or the other cards which lead to this or are very, very bad in general.

jojo wants chris to see this and change it :=)

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 Post subject: Re: Balance WAR between JOJO and CHRISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:23 pm 
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heres the list:
enlist 2 heli
kevlar infantry 2
tech aa/heavy/heli/recon/arty/fighter
lethal aa/recon/heavy
armored aa/recon/heli/fighter/arty
minor overhaul/overhaul
construction crew^^(not true but you wont pick it anyway)
evac 1-4
sharpshoters
ground tech
air tech
all trainings(i think ill regret this)
engine trouble
backfire
last line of defense
bribery (to luck based card)
RAGE 1 RAGE2 :D
smoke not allowed but you should be able to place it on trees on cp and in ressources and water

so this is the list if anyone has anything to add you are welcome 8-)

chrism what about this weekend?

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 Post subject: Re: Balance WAR between JOJO and CHRISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:43 pm 
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Ok, so this may be a noob question, but i'm not afriad to ask. Why do people think the "kevlar"card is so bad? Also, why kevlar infantry 2? I'd like to know the thought/math behind that.

Also, how would you recommend balancing the sharpshooters cards so that they don't suck? they are already free and 5pts only. Would you say adding +1 range to both of them would make them more usable cards? Sniper already has 5 range, I would think that sharpshooter boost which is only two turns would have the same range of 5, don't you think?

I can't even imagine using minor overhaul in any possiblle situation, ever. Even if it was free i doubt i'd ever consider it.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance WAR between JOJO and CHRISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:22 pm 
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jojo wrote:
heres the list:
all trainings(i think ill regret this)


gwahahahaha, nice joke :D
seriously, training are totally overpowered, they give you instawin, please remove them :=)

rage 2 is good imho but you know, your choice :)

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Hardstyle 'till I die! You make this shit go down you are DECIBEL!


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 Post subject: Re: Balance WAR between JOJO and CHRISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:59 pm 
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jojo your ass will be kicked very hard in this :) .

You shouldnt have put there construction crew, because it is free and he can cheat the 1 card in 2 turns rule :) . Same with evacs.

Engine trouble and backfire are good against buffed units.

Also you have it completely wrong. Buffed units are good when you use them with other buffs, So taking kevlar 2 infantry without any other inf buffs is stupid. You complain that no one is using them in sealed. Of course not, because you need other cards to support them and you rarely have that in sealed. But if you make them stronger, than they will be too strong in constructed. Chrism says that they will be made stronger by adding new cards. If they add immunity to debuffs, that will certainly make them stronger.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance WAR between JOJO and CHRISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:38 pm 
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The only thing better than this thread is jojo's current user avatar. Not only did I read every single Calvin and Hobbes growing up, but the picture really suits the spirit of the post.

Fewar makes a great point that I have made several times, but from a slightly different angle. We both realize that the cost of cards is built around constructed deck games. While he emphasizes card combinations, I emphasize the ability to bring an extra card. For instance, Enlist Arty + Firepower = 140g. While a Lethal Artillery costs 25g more than this, in a constructed deck game if I were to bring Lethal Arty instead of the two card combination, I now have the ability to bring one more of any other card in the game! To be able to now bring an infantry hero or airborne ranger or whatever card you think is the best, is certainly worth 25g. In sealed, you would prefer the 140g combo, because the card you would bring as an extra is probably rather weak - you don't have your choice of rares or ultra rares.

Also, not all the cards jojo mentioned go unused in constructed. I have been tinkering with a deck involving "Enlist Two Heli" as a counter to a tank rush. I also watched a constructed game HighVibes (ranked 5th in constructed as of this post) played where he brought a "Sharpshooter" card in combo with "Armor Piercing."

------------------------

That all being said, I do think jojo's feelings are echoed by many, including myself, to an extent. If certain cards just don't feel right to veteran players (veteran being a loose term with a game this young) then it certain warrants examining certain cards. (I will set up a separate thread for this or find an existing one to comment in)

As far as the notion of cards being priced based on planned expansions... it just raises some questions. If a change is not currently being made because a premium card is right around the corner, cool. If a change is not currently being made because an expansion is soon to be released, cool. If there are a total set number of expansions and cards in place for the entire future and prices are based on the big picture, cool (this is supposing the entire game has been designed, but is only being released piece by piece, but that the prices are based on the total game when finished).

But my sense is that while some expansions are well underway, the future cards set to be released are not set in stone, or else there would not be so many card idea threads. Since this game will likely be always changing, it seems like it would be best to have card prices determined based on their power with other current available cards. There will always be a new card or expansion in the future that changes things and not all these changes can be clearly seen now. But since I have no idea what is planned, I'll leave this to game management's best judgment.


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