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 Post subject: What are your top 3 balance changes?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:24 pm 
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If you could change 3 things about game balance what would they be? I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks on this one.

1) I would make light tanks shoot 4 times instead of 5 times, but still do the same amount of damage per turn. Not only do I think this would help make light tanks a lot more viable but I just hate watching Tanks shoot something and hit for 8 damage (or 2 damage on a buffed infantry). Light tanks need a little more bite, but not more damage output per turn.

2) I would have all movement buffs add a specific number instead of a percent. Partial movement is confusing, especially when you add in the fact that you can move more quickly on roads. This would make a huge difference in using an octane (+2 movement) on heavy tanks and AA, giving them 5 movement instead of 4.5. Heavy Tanks could use a little love at the moment, and I think this change would not only give them a helpful boost but would also make buffing units with odd numbers for movement a lot easier to use. Would only hurt recon movement, which really isn't an issue.

EDIT: I realized that this might make artillery considerably more maneuverable. Not sure if that would cause more problems or not. Easy similar solution is to have all movement percentage increases round up to the nearest whole number.

Octane +2 movement
Octane boost +4 movement
Aviation Octane +3 movement
Aviation Octane Boost +5 movement
We Need Rein +3 movement to any mechanical
Squad Lead +3 movement
Tank Lead +2 movement
Retreat +4 mechanical movement, +3 infantry movement
Berserk/Berserk 2 +2 movement
Kamikaze/Kamikaze 2 +3 movement
Engine Failure -2 movement (maybe problem for artillery?)
Backfire -2 movement

3) I would update the tournament maps. I have found that crossfire makes for great games much more consistently than a lot of the other tournament maps. Some of the features on this map which I think encourage good games are that:
A) There are more than two lanes which you could likely send your units. The less lanes the more predictable the strategies are.
B) There aren't many 1 hex chokes (only mid). Many other maps restrict movement too much, making many strategies involving lots of ground units obsolete. 2 hex wide chokes almost everywhere should be standard.
C) Medium to Large sized maps that have 550 starting gold are much more forgiving if you do not get a lot of enlists/mercs in sealed. Because small maps are less forgiving this way I think that tournament maps should be medium-large 550g maps.


So those are my picks. What are yours?


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 Post subject: Re: What are your top 3 balance changes?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:23 pm 
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Posts: 245
Its not really a "balance change" but I agree that I think it would be better to have a light tank fire four times but do the same damage per turn. It seems really strange sometimes to see a light tank fire three shots before another unit fires one shot.

Pacify Air/Ground versus Immobilize Air/Ground: I think the immobilize is overpowered when you compare these two cards. Pacify costs 40g and works for one turn while immobilize costs 5g and works for two turns. The thing is, that with the exception of artillery, immobilize often works as a pacify. When a plane (3 range) or helicopter (2 range) gets immobilized for 5g, the opponent can shoot it with his Anti-Air at a safe distance of 4 range. When a heavy tank (3 range) or light tank (3 range) gets immobilized the opponent can shoot it with his artillery (5 range) or with air units without sustaining any return fire from the immobilized unit.

There are times when it is preferable to use pacify instead of immobilize, but in general immobilize ground/air is overpowered. In my view it should either cost more gold or be reduced to one turn worth of effect. Additionally, immobilize prevents the use of evacuation or airlift, making it even more powerful. Another way to reduce the obvious overpower of immobilize ground/air is to allow evacuation or airlift to be used on an immobilized unit.

Heavy Tank Hero versus Heli Hero: Multiple times I have tried to design a constructed deck around heavy tank hero but cannot do it. When compared to heli hero, the latter has a clear advantage. Buying a regular heavy tank without an enlist card costs 160g. Buying a regular helicopter without an enlist card costs 165g. However, buying a heli hero costs 200g while a heavy tank hero costs 250g. So, the heavy tank hero must get much more improvements over the heli hero, right? Wrong.

Both get increased damage. Both get increased vision and range. Both get increased hit points, with the heavy tank hero getting a bonus of 60 and the heli hero getting 35 (slight advantage heavy tank hero). But the heli hero also gets additional movement. As Rothmorthau noted, the biggest problem with heavy tanks is their lack of movement - and a heavy tank hero can't even be given a movement buff; its stuck at 3 movement which is incredibly slow.

Additionally, the heli hero cannot be shot by artillery, helicopters, or tanks - a heavy tank hero can. A heli hero can fly over hills and trees to escape an enemy - a heavy tank hero cannot. The heavy tank hero does have the advantage in that it is capable of being airlifted, but airlifts cost gold and require card slots so I don't think this ability is nearly enough to offset all the clear advantages heli hero has. As things currently stand, I cannot picture anybody creating a successful deck around a heavy tank hero.

I would give the heavy tank hero one increased movement and reduce the cost to 220g. Then it would be a viable card.


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 Post subject: Re: What are your top 3 balance changes?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:17 pm 
Battle Dex Testing Team
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1. more players
2. more players
3. more players

I wouldnt do any balancing changes right now. There were many more people working on/playing this game when the balancing was done, I think it is pretty good now. Now there is no one here to say arguments against your proposals. And never ever allow Bubbles do any balancing :) .

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 Post subject: Re: What are your top 3 balance changes?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:20 pm 
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You cannot image good use of heavy tank here, because you didnt consider 2v2 games :) . This hero is very expensive, and to use it in 1v1 is huge gamble and will likely not work. But in 2v2 you can fins use for it. Similar is for example enlist 2 heavy tanks.

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 Post subject: Re: What are your top 3 balance changes?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:25 pm 
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fewar wrote:
I wouldnt do any balancing changes right now. There were many more people working on/playing this game when the balancing was done, I think it is pretty good now. Now there is no one here to say arguments against your proposals.


Good point. Let's not try to consider any ways of improving this game until there are more people. Let's not put any thought or effort into making this better. It would be impossible for future players to see what we write now and comment on it later. Heck, lets cancel our subscriptions and stop playing this game altogether until there are more people.

Was that sarcastic enough? There is a difference between actually implementing changes and discussing hypothetical future changes. Rothmorthau posed a question so I politely responded to it.

Overall the balance does work. As you pointed out in a previous post, you learn the rules and you play with them. No game will ever be perfectly balanced. No game will ever make perfectly rational sense. The rules and dynamics are what they are. But that doesn't mean they couldn't be better. It doesn't mean we should stop considering balance issues or issues of logic.

For a long time I accepted immobilize and no fly zone. I still accept them. But I have also come to realize that they are clearly overpowered when compared to pacify.

And you are right that I did not consider 2v2 when discussing HT hero. It is tough to discuss balance issues, first and foremost, because you have constructed and sealed. Adding team games adds yet another dynamic. But I have never felt the attraction of this game was team games. Team games seemed like the undercard before the main event; a sideshow worthy of being included but taking second stage to the main attraction. So if HT Hero is rendered worthless in 1v1 because it may otherwise be overpowered in 2v2 that is not a consideration worth much merit in my book. But for someone attracted to this game primarily for the 2v2, it certainly may be a valid concern.


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 Post subject: Re: What are your top 3 balance changes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:53 am 
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I am not saying game shouldnt be improved, there are lots of ways to improve it. But changing balance of game when 4 people are playing it? (I take the number from number of players coming to free tournaments, which give free cards)

In past there were lots of discussions on balance. There were people who said something is underpowered and should be improved. Sometimes everyone agreed. Sometimes someone showed proof that it isnt. (by showing how to play that card properly) There were some very good players here who could do that. No one can think of all possibilities by himself, you need some opposition to your arguments, to get to the right result. There is no opposition here now.

Game should be balanced for the constructed games. Only thought to balancing sealed games should be in rarity of cards.

Its true 1v1 was most played, but people wanted to play team games and they liked them. I think team games would be very popular.

Expensive cards like heavy tank hero, can be used in very special strategies in 1v1, which are build around that card. I have seen hth work even in 1v1. But they become more usable in team game. Why shouldnt there be card which is almost unusable in 1v1, but starts shining in team? There are more cards like that. I have never seen anyone take construction crew in 1v1, but in team it is almost necessary card to have.

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 Post subject: Re: What are your top 3 balance changes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:05 am 
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To your arguments on immobilize: Each card costs at least 35 gold, because you could take enlist card instead of it. Immobilize is very situational card. You might take immobilize air and opponent will not take any air units, or only heli hero. It takes room in your deck, you could take other card which you know you will have use for. There were actually very few immobilize cards used in constructed games.

I agree that it is powerful in sealed (as are enlists), I always takes some if I can, but balancing is done for constructed.

I agree that immobilize should not prevent evac, airlfit. If nothing else, it is random if this happens or not(on turn when this is played), and that is not good. Many random factors were removed from this game (like critical hits), this should be also. It might be solved also the other way (immobilize will prevent evac always), but that would make the card even stronger. I think it is good way to nerf this card/

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